Chasssse Utley, You Are The Man

Re: Chasssse Utley, You Are The Man

Postby Bucky » Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:39 am

I (unfortunately) heard a snippet of a talk radio discussion about it. One guy was making the point that Utley had more WARs than Rollins. My question is- is WAR position dependent? Or is it normalized?
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Re: Chasssse Utley, You Are The Man

Postby Werthless » Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:57 am

Bucky wrote:I (unfortunately) heard a snippet of a talk radio discussion about it. One guy was making the point that Utley had more WARs than Rollins. My question is- is WAR position dependent? Or is it normalized?

Defensive value is influenced by position, so yes, there is an explicit positional adjustment. That said, not every position is uniformly represented in Cooperstown, as different positions have been harder to get in with similar credentials. 2nd and 3rd base have been historically difficult IIRC.
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Re: Chasssse Utley, You Are The Man

Postby Uncle Milty » Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:12 am

Rollins has a better shot at induction in Cooperstown. Utley's only chance is a family vacation.
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Re: Chasssse Utley, You Are The Man

Postby Ace Rothstein » Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:16 am

Uncle Milty wrote:Rollins has a better shot at induction in Cooperstown. Utley's only chance is a family vacation.


Felt the opposite until I saw the love Vizquel got in his 1st year
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Re: Chasssse Utley, You Are The Man

Postby MoBettle » Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:24 am

It'll be a real shame if he doesn't get in because of some counting stats bs.

He had over 1,000 plate appearances in triple A.
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Re: Chasssse Utley, You Are The Man

Postby Shore » Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:40 am

Rollins? Utley's a better player than Jeter, and they'd induct Jeter today if they were allowed. Jeter was healthier, played longer, and had better teammates for most of his career. But he's a not quite the hitter Utley was, didn't quite have the 10-year peak Utley had, and is not just a step but a staircase behind him defensively.
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Re: Chasssse Utley, You Are The Man

Postby heyeaglefn » Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:42 am

MoBettle wrote:It'll be a real shame if he doesn't get in because of some counting stats bs.

He had over 1,000 plate appearances in triple A.

When have they ignored counting stats though? Isn't that what the HOF Voters love?
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Re: Chasssse Utley, You Are The Man

Postby Shore » Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:43 am

Trent Steele wrote:maybe the phillies can next kidnap and execute my mom in their ongoing attempt to do things that makes me want to hate them
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Re: Chasssse Utley, You Are The Man

Postby MoBettle » Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:47 am

heyeaglefn wrote:
MoBettle wrote:It'll be a real shame if he doesn't get in because of some counting stats bs.

He had over 1,000 plate appearances in triple A.

When have they ignored counting stats though? Isn't that what the HOF Voters love?

I agree. I'm just saying it's a shame that he might not get in because he raked against AAA pitching for two years and missed out on like 700 plate appearances in 03 and 04 because we had Bell and Polanco.
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Re: Chasssse Utley, You Are The Man

Postby Polar Bear Phan » Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:20 am

I think Utley gets the Alan Trammell treatment. So, 15 years on the ballot (edit: 10 for Chase) followed by an immediate induction by the Veterans Committee.

That's life if you don't have the counting stats and weren't a Yankee or Red Sox.
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Re: Chasssse Utley, You Are The Man

Postby Uncle Milty » Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:32 am

I loved Phillies Chase too but y'all are delusional.
Drunk and stupid is no way to be remembered but it is an easy way to forget.

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Re: Chasssse Utley, You Are The Man

Postby heyeaglefn » Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:43 am

You also have to factor that a lot of players don't love him.
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Re: Chasssse Utley, You Are The Man

Postby Shore » Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:40 pm

Uncle Milty wrote:I loved Phillies Chase too but y'all are delusional.


In what way? For a 10-year stretch, 2005-2014, Pujols, Utley, and Miggy were three most valuable players in baseball. Both bWAR and fWAR agree on that, and the order. A decade of dominant play, with a WFC, and all the jackoffs that hate modern baseball and write poetry about the pre-steroid era HAVE to love his throwback approach.
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Re: Chasssse Utley, You Are The Man

Postby Uncle Milty » Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:46 pm

I'm talking about the HOF not his value overall.
Drunk and stupid is no way to be remembered but it is an easy way to forget.

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Re: Chasssse Utley, You Are The Man

Postby Werthless » Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:56 pm

heyeaglefn wrote:You also have to factor that a lot of players don't love him.

He's got the respect of most players, I think. I think he has the reputation of being a hard-nosed gritty player, and not a dirty player, by most other players.

I'm wearing rose colored glasses, but he is the type of player that both old school and analytics people might coalesce around.
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Re: Chasssse Utley, You Are The Man

Postby lethal » Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:10 pm

Werthless wrote:
heyeaglefn wrote:You also have to factor that a lot of players don't love him.

He's got the respect of most players, I think. I think he has the reputation of being a hard-nosed gritty player, and not a dirty player, by most other players.

I'm wearing rose colored glasses, but he is the type of player that both old school and analytics people might coalesce around.


I think the Ruben Tejada takeout slide switched the narrative on him from a hard nosed player to a borderline dirty one.

I think the guys who have played with him love him, but the guys who played against him and was never his teammate, they probably range from don't care to dislike.
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Re: Chasssse Utley, You Are The Man

Postby bleh » Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:55 pm

I said this before but Cano getting busted helps him a lot. Another thing that could help is if no other big names retire this year. Gotta hope Ichiro gets a few more at bats next year.

I don't think either of Rollins or Utley get in, but I'd bet Utley does a lot better on the ballots than Rollins. Rollins was consistently good but never one of the best players in the game like Utley.
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Re: Chasssse Utley, You Are The Man

Postby Werthless » Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:58 pm

I think you're forgetting the MVP
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Re: Chasssse Utley, You Are The Man

Postby swishnicholson » Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:03 pm

Werthless wrote:I think you're forgetting the MVP


Had forgotten that Rollins didn't make the All Star game that year. Tough to turn away a proven talent like JJ Hardy, I guess.
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Re: Chasssse Utley, You Are The Man

Postby Uncle Milty » Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:46 pm

Werthless wrote:I think you're forgetting the MVP

You joke but that, the gold gloves and counting stats put Jimmy much closer to induction than Chase.
Drunk and stupid is no way to be remembered but it is an easy way to forget.

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