anti-vaccination insanity

Re: anti-vaccination insanity

Postby pacino » Sat Nov 24, 2018 6:51 pm

apparently the costs you are OK with are babies dying because they get exposed to disease by selfish asshats that don't believe in science
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Re: anti-vaccination insanity

Postby Monkeyboy » Sat Nov 24, 2018 10:00 pm

I never said I'm ok with it. I just don't think we should mandate medical procedures. My kids have all their vaccinations, btw.

Is it possible that mandating this procedure will lead to many worse effects than the death of a few? It's not like I'm going to put up a fuss if there's some law mandating vaccinations passed, but drug companies have been notorious about putting profits ahead of science and public safety. If some law is passed, I would like it specifically said in the wording that there will be no broadening of the program beyond the procedure currently available.
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Re: anti-vaccination insanity

Postby Monkeyboy » Sat Nov 24, 2018 10:15 pm

btw, we should be able to have an intelligent conversation about stuff like this without someone being accused of being in favor of dead babies. I said we should attack the problem through education and other means, which certainly suggests I don't want dead babies.

Sometimes the mods need a mod, I guess.

I also it's not really the freedom thing. It's that I believe forcing medical procedures is a slippery slope. I pay a good bit of attention to what's coming down the pike in terms of genetics and what we'll be able to do with it. I understand this is tricky because there is public good in the mix, as there is with gun laws. I would just prefer other means. Basically, I believe the balance in this case might end up being worse in the long run if we start forcing medical procedures. This isn't indefensible and it doesn't mean I want dead babies. In fact, I think my viewpoint will create less suffering in the long run.
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Re: anti-vaccination insanity

Postby pacino » Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:56 am

The effect of your idea is dead people. Making vaccinations optional and able to be opted out of means people opt out and those who are unable to have them or too young yet get exposed. Herd immunity breaks. You are working with hypotethicals where I'm simply pointing out the actual real consequences.

Own your position. It is what it is.
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Re: anti-vaccination insanity

Postby Monkeyboy » Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:37 am

I am owning my position and I understand it might not be popular. But I think you are glossing over quite a bit.

First, go ahead and make a law. See how far that gets you when it goes to the SCOTUS and is struck down because people are allowed to make their own medical choices, especially once they start declaring it a religious right. You getting a law passed is what's hypothetical.

Second, there will be a backlash to any type of law like that. The type of people who don't get their kids immunized now are the same type that will push back against your idea and be even less likely to get their kids immunized. They will ban together and it will be another big issue that divides us. People will choose sides and you'll end up with even less people getting immunized. Instead of a health issue, it will be another instance of Big government getting involved in people's lives. It's sad that we live in that world, but it's not just in the US. Switzerland has the same problem with immunization.

Third, I believe that education is a better approach, so that people see that it's the right thing to do. It won't create backlash or division. It should improve the rates of immunization while I believe your approach will decrease the rates.

Fourth, you are forgetting that it makes sense for a small number of people to choose to avoid immunization. Immunization does carry a small risk of infection or side effects. If everyone in your town is immunized, you actually have less of a risk of serious illness by not getting immunized as you do by being immunized. And you have no risk of side effects. Now you and I might believe that's selfish, but the stats do say that it makes medical sense for them to make that choice. At some point, as the immunization rate approaches 100%, you have more children getting sick and dying because they DO get immunized (due to infection or side effects) than you do if they DON''T get immunized (because the chance of catching the illness from another sick person is near 0%). I'm talking on the individual level. So you are asking people to risk illness or death to help other people avoid illness or death. I'm not sure where else we do that in society, but it certainly isn't the usual way of doing things.
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Re: anti-vaccination insanity

Postby pacino » Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:42 am

there are already laws regarding vaccination and allowing children in school. The expansion of exemptions is the newer change. States are easily able to strengthen their existing laws by reducing opt-outs.
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Re: anti-vaccination insanity

Postby Monkeyboy » Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:53 am

pacino wrote:there are already laws regarding vaccination and allowing children in school. The expansion of exemptions is the newer change. States are easily able to strengthen their existing laws by reducing opt-outs.


Yes, I was speaking of making everyone get the immunization. It seemed like people were saying that everyone should be forced to do it (no exemptions), which I disagree with.

The exemptions are a place to let off the pressure that would otherwise build against the practice. I didn't realize that exemptions are expanding, but it doesn't surprise me given the anti-government zeitgeist.

I haven't read the laws, but I have less problem with them if they are written solely for immunization and are not able to be expanded into other areas. I think we are probably a generation away from having genetic alterations enter into this same area, so I am concerned about greasing the skids in this area. I'd like to think a strong education program would do as much or more than the laws. Maybe I'm naive.
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Re: anti-vaccination insanity

Postby Werthless » Sun Nov 25, 2018 3:16 pm

A vaccinated population is a classical public good with a free rider problem. Government has a legal right and moral obligation to protect that public good. This is the perfect situation for withholding other public goods (ie. education) from non-compliers.

Sure, one can make the loaded, slippery slope argument about "govt mandated medical procedures," but unless an alternative strategy is presented for creating this herd immunity, I am convinced that we are close to a Nash Equilibrium here.
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Re: anti-vaccination insanity

Postby Monkeyboy » Sun Nov 25, 2018 5:38 pm

Werthless wrote:A vaccinated population is a classical public good with a free rider problem. Government has a legal right and moral obligation to protect that public good. This is the perfect situation for withholding other public goods (ie. education) from non-compliers.

Sure, one can make the loaded, slippery slope argument about "govt mandated medical procedures," but unless an alternative strategy is presented for creating this herd immunity, I am convinced that we are close to a Nash Equilibrium here.



yes, I agree with that last part. Beyond the slippery slope stuff, my concern is we would throw everything off by mandating the procedure. We don't want this to become political.
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Re: anti-vaccination insanity

Postby TenuredVulture » Sun Nov 25, 2018 6:15 pm

Remember, "slippery slope" is a logical fallacy.
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Re: anti-vaccination insanity

Postby Werthless » Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:16 am

TenuredVulture wrote:Remember, "slippery slope" is a logical fallacy.

this is the anti-vaccination thread... it is one of the more logical arguments one can make against vaccinations.
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Re: anti-vaccination insanity

Postby Bucky » Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:20 am

I know this is not the "discuss logical fallacies" threat, but "slippery slope" might be the wrong term. "Setting a precedent" might fit better.
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Re: anti-vaccination insanity

Postby Bucky » Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:21 am

p.s. I am still 100% in favor of it btw
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Re: anti-vaccination insanity

Postby TenuredVulture » Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:41 am

Call it what you want, it's still a logical fallacy. You can basically use it to argue anything.
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Re: anti-vaccination insanity

Postby Monkeyboy » Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:34 am

But I made several arguments.

BTW, it's not an argument I particularly enjoy making. I have my kids vaccinated. I just think education and other non-legal remedies have higher upside and lower downside. I think the arguments I'm making don't really deserve all the fuss, tbh. We all have the same goal. We just disagree on the best way to get there.
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Re: anti-vaccination insanity

Postby pacino » Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:59 am

Some ways achieve a goal, some don't.
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Re: anti-vaccination insanity

Postby Werthless » Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:07 am

TenuredVulture wrote:Call it what you want, it's still a logical fallacy. You can basically use it to argue anything.

Not sure if you're ironically using a slippery slope argument here, but I love this post!
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Re: anti-vaccination insanity

Postby Philly the Kid » Mon Jan 07, 2019 6:49 am

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Re: anti-vaccination insanity

Postby pacino » Mon Jan 07, 2019 6:59 am

this was debunkedsome time ago

this guy is a quack

other people can publish papers, too!
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Re: anti-vaccination insanity

Postby Werthless » Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:11 am

Philly the Kid wrote:https://jbhandleyblog.com/home/2018/4/1/international2018

Your link was published on April 1st... are you pulling our leg?
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