the Fresh Prince of Wells Fargo: a 76ers Chronicle

Re: the Fresh Prince of Wells Fargo: a 76ers Chronicle

Postby MoBettle » Mon Dec 07, 2015 10:07 pm

Youseff wrote:
Shadow wrote:
Youseff wrote:if the Silver stuff isn't true this is what I think

management realizes Hinkie has a lot of talent, but he's also highly flawed. he has questionable scouting skills, and it's possible his immediate executive staff has questionable scouting skills. beyond that, he's literally the most controversial GM in modern sports. players, fans, GMs, agents and the media largely have a distaste for him. the long term consequences of that have the potential to be very bad, and there is already a "college atmosphere" - which is not conducive to positive professional player development.

so the move definitely is a demotion, but you're not abandoning Hinkie's unique perspective and unique skill set. In fact, you're giving him the ability to learn from a GM who has skill sets that he has deficiencies in. despite what doofuses like Spike Eskin will say, mentors are a real and prevalent thing for accomplished business folks. best case scenario they find a working harmony and are able to combine their skill sets to make this a success. worst case scenario, the tailspin of negative publicity that Hinkie has fostered has already created enough damage that they'll need to scrap the whole FO and start over again.


He has questionable scouting skills? He picked the rookie of the year at pick number 11, then realized he wouldn't be the long-term answer, and out-scouted the Bucks who thought he was legit... and he is now coming off of their bench. So he basically won there on both fronts. Then he got a top 3 rookie of the year candidate with Noel, and will have another in Okafor. He found guys like Covington and Ish Smith, who no one around the league had any interest in at all.

It's still early to judge, but I don't see how he would be labeled as questionable. His success rate has been very good.


Ish Smith had gotten major minutes on playoff teams before the Sixers. look it up. you're wayyyy off there. He found a gem in Cov for sure.

MCW would have gotten like 10-20 minutes a game on most other teams in the NBA and wouldn't have won ROY. he won b/c we played a system suited to his style and strengths, but he's really not that good. Hinkie is ultimately responsible for drafting a guy that's not that good. I'm cool with the Lakers trade, but that's not really speaking to his scouting skills.


Hinkie is very good at valuing assets (and, up to this point, has had an owner that has let him focus on valuing assets purely). I haven't seen anything that says he's above or below average at evaluating talent.
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Re: the Fresh Prince of Wells Fargo: a 76ers Chronicle

Postby Shadow » Mon Dec 07, 2015 10:08 pm

Youseff wrote:
Shadow wrote:
Youseff wrote:if the Silver stuff isn't true this is what I think

management realizes Hinkie has a lot of talent, but he's also highly flawed. he has questionable scouting skills, and it's possible his immediate executive staff has questionable scouting skills. beyond that, he's literally the most controversial GM in modern sports. players, fans, GMs, agents and the media largely have a distaste for him. the long term consequences of that have the potential to be very bad, and there is already a "college atmosphere" - which is not conducive to positive professional player development.

so the move definitely is a demotion, but you're not abandoning Hinkie's unique perspective and unique skill set. In fact, you're giving him the ability to learn from a GM who has skill sets that he has deficiencies in. despite what doofuses like Spike Eskin will say, mentors are a real and prevalent thing for accomplished business folks. best case scenario they find a working harmony and are able to combine their skill sets to make this a success. worst case scenario, the tailspin of negative publicity that Hinkie has fostered has already created enough damage that they'll need to scrap the whole FO and start over again.


He has questionable scouting skills? He picked the rookie of the year at pick number 11, then realized he wouldn't be the long-term answer, and out-scouted the Bucks who thought he was legit... and he is now coming off of their bench. So he basically won there on both fronts. Then he got a top 3 rookie of the year candidate with Noel, and will have another in Okafor. He found guys like Covington and Ish Smith, who no one around the league had any interest in at all.

It's still early to judge, but I don't see how he would be labeled as questionable. His success rate has been very good.


Ish Smith had gotten major minutes on playoff teams before the Sixers. look it up. you're wayyyy off there. He found a gem in Cov for sure.

MCW would have gotten like 10-20 minutes a game on most other teams in the NBA and wouldn't have won ROY. he won b/c we played a system suited to his style and strengths, but he's really not that good. Hinkie is ultimately responsible for drafting a guy that's not that good. I'm cool with the Lakers trade, but that's not really speaking to his scouting skills.


Hinkie basically resurrected Ish Smith's career. The fact is, no one wanted him, but Hinkie did. Then he found a job with New Orleans.

With MCW that may be true, that may not, we'll never know for sure, but you still haven't said what makes his scouting skills questionable. What specifically was questionable about his scouting? Is there a trade he goofed on or a signing that turned out to be a disaster?
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Re: the Fresh Prince of Wells Fargo: a 76ers Chronicle

Postby pacino » Mon Dec 07, 2015 10:09 pm

Positioning the mcw pick and deal as a bad evaluation is interesting. It was a down year with no talent and he flipped the guy for a potential #4 pick
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Re: the Fresh Prince of Wells Fargo: a 76ers Chronicle

Postby Youseff » Mon Dec 07, 2015 10:09 pm

Houshphandzadeh wrote:you know Odom was only on the heat one year, right


referencing the accumulation of assets for a star model and people won't get it if I say the Brian Grant or Caron Butler era, and will yell at me and say something about Lebron if I don't clarify I was talking about another era.
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Re: the Fresh Prince of Wells Fargo: a 76ers Chronicle

Postby MoBettle » Mon Dec 07, 2015 10:10 pm

Eddie Jordan wrote:He made some prett direct remarks about possibly altering the process, and Harris about speeding it up. I'll probably be devastated if we waited this long for them to pull a Joe Dumars on us. Man I have a bad feeling, bringing in old people is never something I want with my sports franchises


Trying to speed the process up when you already have ~6 lottery picks on the roster isn't the worst thing in the world.

Bringing Colangelo in after 3 years of tanking is completely different than bringing him in immediately after Collins.
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Re: the Fresh Prince of Wells Fargo: a 76ers Chronicle

Postby Youseff » Mon Dec 07, 2015 10:13 pm

Shadow wrote:
Youseff wrote:
Shadow wrote:
Youseff wrote:if the Silver stuff isn't true this is what I think

management realizes Hinkie has a lot of talent, but he's also highly flawed. he has questionable scouting skills, and it's possible his immediate executive staff has questionable scouting skills. beyond that, he's literally the most controversial GM in modern sports. players, fans, GMs, agents and the media largely have a distaste for him. the long term consequences of that have the potential to be very bad, and there is already a "college atmosphere" - which is not conducive to positive professional player development.

so the move definitely is a demotion, but you're not abandoning Hinkie's unique perspective and unique skill set. In fact, you're giving him the ability to learn from a GM who has skill sets that he has deficiencies in. despite what doofuses like Spike Eskin will say, mentors are a real and prevalent thing for accomplished business folks. best case scenario they find a working harmony and are able to combine their skill sets to make this a success. worst case scenario, the tailspin of negative publicity that Hinkie has fostered has already created enough damage that they'll need to scrap the whole FO and start over again.


He has questionable scouting skills? He picked the rookie of the year at pick number 11, then realized he wouldn't be the long-term answer, and out-scouted the Bucks who thought he was legit... and he is now coming off of their bench. So he basically won there on both fronts. Then he got a top 3 rookie of the year candidate with Noel, and will have another in Okafor. He found guys like Covington and Ish Smith, who no one around the league had any interest in at all.

It's still early to judge, but I don't see how he would be labeled as questionable. His success rate has been very good.


Ish Smith had gotten major minutes on playoff teams before the Sixers. look it up. you're wayyyy off there. He found a gem in Cov for sure.

MCW would have gotten like 10-20 minutes a game on most other teams in the NBA and wouldn't have won ROY. he won b/c we played a system suited to his style and strengths, but he's really not that good. Hinkie is ultimately responsible for drafting a guy that's not that good. I'm cool with the Lakers trade, but that's not really speaking to his scouting skills.


Hinkie basically resurrected Ish Smith's career. The fact is, no one wanted him, but Hinkie did. Then he found a job with New Orleans.

With MCW that may be true, that may not, we'll never know for sure, but you still haven't said what makes his scouting skills questionable. What specifically was questionable about his scouting? Is there a trade he goofed on or a signing that turned out to be a disaster?


mostly the roster construction with Jah being a huge disaster by mostly everyone's standards, but also the idea that we've cycled like 40 something guys through here in the last 3 years which has only yielded a few fruits (and ones that you have to talk yourself into imo). very inefficient.
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Re: the Fresh Prince of Wells Fargo: a 76ers Chronicle

Postby The Savior » Mon Dec 07, 2015 10:14 pm

Also helps to build a culture in which the lottery players you draft want to stay
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Re: the Fresh Prince of Wells Fargo: a 76ers Chronicle

Postby pacino » Mon Dec 07, 2015 10:16 pm

We've traded exactly one lottery player. Not counting Payton because that's silly.
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Re: the Fresh Prince of Wells Fargo: a 76ers Chronicle

Postby The Savior » Mon Dec 07, 2015 10:16 pm

Thinking more about when they reach FA
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Re: the Fresh Prince of Wells Fargo: a 76ers Chronicle

Postby Shadow » Mon Dec 07, 2015 10:17 pm

Youseff wrote:
Shadow wrote:
Youseff wrote:
Shadow wrote:
Youseff wrote:if the Silver stuff isn't true this is what I think

management realizes Hinkie has a lot of talent, but he's also highly flawed. he has questionable scouting skills, and it's possible his immediate executive staff has questionable scouting skills. beyond that, he's literally the most controversial GM in modern sports. players, fans, GMs, agents and the media largely have a distaste for him. the long term consequences of that have the potential to be very bad, and there is already a "college atmosphere" - which is not conducive to positive professional player development.

so the move definitely is a demotion, but you're not abandoning Hinkie's unique perspective and unique skill set. In fact, you're giving him the ability to learn from a GM who has skill sets that he has deficiencies in. despite what doofuses like Spike Eskin will say, mentors are a real and prevalent thing for accomplished business folks. best case scenario they find a working harmony and are able to combine their skill sets to make this a success. worst case scenario, the tailspin of negative publicity that Hinkie has fostered has already created enough damage that they'll need to scrap the whole FO and start over again.


He has questionable scouting skills? He picked the rookie of the year at pick number 11, then realized he wouldn't be the long-term answer, and out-scouted the Bucks who thought he was legit... and he is now coming off of their bench. So he basically won there on both fronts. Then he got a top 3 rookie of the year candidate with Noel, and will have another in Okafor. He found guys like Covington and Ish Smith, who no one around the league had any interest in at all.

It's still early to judge, but I don't see how he would be labeled as questionable. His success rate has been very good.


Ish Smith had gotten major minutes on playoff teams before the Sixers. look it up. you're wayyyy off there. He found a gem in Cov for sure.

MCW would have gotten like 10-20 minutes a game on most other teams in the NBA and wouldn't have won ROY. he won b/c we played a system suited to his style and strengths, but he's really not that good. Hinkie is ultimately responsible for drafting a guy that's not that good. I'm cool with the Lakers trade, but that's not really speaking to his scouting skills.


Hinkie basically resurrected Ish Smith's career. The fact is, no one wanted him, but Hinkie did. Then he found a job with New Orleans.

With MCW that may be true, that may not, we'll never know for sure, but you still haven't said what makes his scouting skills questionable. What specifically was questionable about his scouting? Is there a trade he goofed on or a signing that turned out to be a disaster?


mostly the roster construction with Jah being a huge disaster by mostly everyone's standards, but also the idea that we've cycled like 40 something guys through here in the last 3 years which has only yielded a few fruits (and ones that you have to talk yourself into imo). very inefficient.


Well, when I think scouting, I think talent evaluation. Okafor was lauded as being a really good guy. I think it was unpredictable that he would start doing nutty stuff. I don't think the construction is a disaster of yet, because it's not complete. Right now they have all the puzzle pieces in a big pile, it's just a matter of sorting it out. I don't think by any stretch he plans to have all 3 big men on this team for the long term.

The guys he has cycled in and out are just stopgaps and fill-ins serving a purpose. To take up roster space and eat minutes while keeping up the tank. I think within 2 years, almost everyone on this roster sans 3 guys could be gone.
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Re: the Fresh Prince of Wells Fargo: a 76ers Chronicle

Postby PSUEagle » Mon Dec 07, 2015 10:23 pm

I like the cut of this Shadow guy's jib: he needs to post more often.
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Re: the Fresh Prince of Wells Fargo: a 76ers Chronicle

Postby PrattRules » Mon Dec 07, 2015 10:24 pm

PrattRules wrote:6th row tickets tonight. Hope Timmy plays.


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Re: the Fresh Prince of Wells Fargo: a 76ers Chronicle

Postby Youseff » Mon Dec 07, 2015 10:25 pm

yeah, scouting is way more than drafting. Hinkie will tell you that! he always talks about bringing in lots of player prior to the draft even if they don't draft them - one of the benefits being that you scout them and better understand them for future purposes.

I'll revise my statement, though, he's done nothing to prove he's a good evaluator and my suspicion is he's subpar. to his credit, he'd be the first to admit that gms (including himself) are going to goof up and made bad picks, which is one reason you want to maximize your chances of getting a good pick. that leads to all the pick talk that we're all well versed in now.
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Re: the Fresh Prince of Wells Fargo: a 76ers Chronicle

Postby Youseff » Mon Dec 07, 2015 10:27 pm

Ish Smith, the guy that had been on 8 NBA teams before the Sixers, got discovered by Sam Hinkie.
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Re: the Fresh Prince of Wells Fargo: a 76ers Chronicle

Postby Gimpy » Mon Dec 07, 2015 10:28 pm

This is a point that was brought back several pages ago, but I think Silver should never ever ever ever try to address parity in the NBA. The NBA is most fun when we have great teams (which causes us to have terrible teams). Look at this season with the Warriors. Every game is appointment viewing. Casual fans aren't going to have a reason to give a #$!&@ about an 82 regular game schedule where every game is a coin flip.
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Re: the Fresh Prince of Wells Fargo: a 76ers Chronicle

Postby wwry » Mon Dec 07, 2015 10:29 pm

PSUEagle wrote:I like the cut of this Shadow guy's jib: he needs to post more often.

he's evil but also noble and stoic.
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Re: the Fresh Prince of Wells Fargo: a 76ers Chronicle

Postby MoBettle » Mon Dec 07, 2015 10:29 pm

Gimpy wrote:This is a point that was brought back several pages ago, but I think Silver should never ever ever ever try to address parity in the NBA. The NBA is most fun when we have great teams (which causes us to have terrible teams). Look at this season with the Warriors. Every game is appointment viewing. Casual fans aren't going to have a reason to give a #$!&@ about an 82 regular game schedule where every game is a coin flip.


Nah man, everyone wants to see two teams as good as the Celtics and the Suns playing in the finals.
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Re: the Fresh Prince of Wells Fargo: a 76ers Chronicle

Postby Gimpy » Mon Dec 07, 2015 10:30 pm

But they don't give minutes to bad players!
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Re: the Fresh Prince of Wells Fargo: a 76ers Chronicle

Postby PSUEagle » Mon Dec 07, 2015 10:32 pm

Yeah, it's totally fun knowing you have zero chance at an NBA title going into a season if you don't root for GSW/SAS/CLE.
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Re: the Fresh Prince of Wells Fargo: a 76ers Chronicle

Postby Shadow » Mon Dec 07, 2015 10:33 pm

Youseff wrote:Ish Smith, the guy that had been on 8 NBA teams before the Sixers, got discovered by Sam Hinkie.


I didn't say he discovered him, but you have to give Hinkie credit for signing him when no one else did, don't you? I'm not saying he deserves some award, but it's hardly a negative on his resume of GM moves.

I think he's done a pretty good job, if you look at what his goal was. If his goal was to have a 40 win team by year 3, then sure, he failed, but I don't think he was planning anything of the sort. I don't think Hinkie can be fully judged until this all plays itself out, though. And now with Colangelo on board, that makes it even more difficult. We'll always be asking ourselves who was the man behind the moves.
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