Waiting for Santa and Simmons: A Sixers Thread

Re: Waiting for Santa and Simmons: A Sixers Thread

Postby phillychuck » Sat Dec 17, 2016 11:13 am

JFLNYC wrote:
MoBettle wrote:
phillychuck wrote:
JFLNYC wrote:

And, by the way, for all the good Hinkie has done by leaving them in a great position in the upcoming draft, he also has to bear a chunk of the responsibility for the situation they find themselves in now. Drafting the BPA sounds great in theory but, in practice, when you draft 3 centers in a row it's not so easy to move one or two of them for full value.


Yeah, OK, but no one knows how Hinkie would have played things draft night or over the off-season. Maybe he gets a decent trade for both of them. Just because Collars couldn't move 'em doesn't mean Hinkie couldn't have.

And, by the way, we need to have patience with guys playing together. Two games is a really small sample.

And, let me beat the drum one more time--a lot of this is on Brown. He needs to motivate Jah on defense, coach him up, and figure out how to have two of Jah, Noel, and Embiid on the court together playing well on both ends of the court. That's his freakin' job. It's not completely on the players. Skill-sets aren't fixed in stone.


I'd be more inclined to be patient if this wasn't the way everyone predicted it would go before they tried it. It's been relatively ok on offense but Embiid is floating around the perimeter and Okafor is a walking layup line on the other end. They've played 48 minutes together at this point and have a net rating of -14.3 which is the worst of any two person lineup with Embiid besides an 8 minute run with Grant.


Thank you. You can coach Okafor from now until eternity but if he's your rim protector with JoJo chasing stretch 4's on the perimeter it's a serious downgrade defensively and you're screwing with your franchise player the whole time.


Most coaches (I think) would put Joel at the defensive 5 and let Okafor chase the 4s on the perimeter. You can teach slow guys to be reasonably effective perimeter defenders IF you work at it. For a while. It's all about positioning and anticipation, and that's not in their DNA, it's coached. And it takes creative drills in practice, and it takes a decent amount of game experience.

I agree that Okafor doesn't defend the rim well enough to be a good defensive NBA 5, at least at his present level of physical development. But you can coach him to be a decent defensive 4. I can't let Brown off the hook completely. And he needs to be tougher on the players in terms of getting their best effort. Sometimes you have to tell them why they aren't getting it done, actually rub their noses in it. Sometimes you have to be supportive. Brown is great at the supportive stuff, but not too impressive in terms of holding guys accountable.
Marquelle Fultz: (6/23) "My goal is to be the best player in the NBA."
Ben Simmons: (8/28) "My goal is to be the best in the league."
Don't fight, Embiid has this covered.
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Re: Waiting for Santa and Simmons: A Sixers Thread

Postby MoBettle » Sat Dec 17, 2016 11:14 am

phillychuck wrote:
Grotewold wrote:spike

"It is sort of a problem that the Sixers have too many centers. It's a much bigger one that one of them is Okafor. Podcast in a bit!"


I love Spike and Mike, but Spike's Okafor takes are getting tedious.


It's hot takey but there's a decent point there. Okafor's limited game is a big reason why it is so hard to play him with another center. The success of any two center lineup depends on the other center being able to sufficiently adjust his game because Okafor is doing more or less the same thing no matter what.

I'd really like them to shift to pairing Embiid and Noel together. Noel is more of a high post guy while Embiid is more of a low post guy, and I'm confident it will be at least acceptable defensively. That also allows Okafor to get used to being Embiid's full time backup which is most likely where we are heading long term anyway.
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Re: Waiting for Santa and Simmons: A Sixers Thread

Postby Gimpy » Sat Dec 17, 2016 11:22 am

Squire wrote:Is everyone convinced that Noel would be satisfied if *just* Okafor was traded? Think he'd be OK being second fiddle to Embiid?


He's not a selfish offensive player and he's said publicly that he thinks he could step out and defend on the perimeter if Embiid is near the rim, so I don't see why he wouldn't be alright with it as long as he's getting minutes.
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Re: Waiting for Santa and Simmons: A Sixers Thread

Postby MoBettle » Sat Dec 17, 2016 11:25 am

phillychuck wrote:
JFLNYC wrote:
MoBettle wrote:
phillychuck wrote:
JFLNYC wrote:

And, by the way, for all the good Hinkie has done by leaving them in a great position in the upcoming draft, he also has to bear a chunk of the responsibility for the situation they find themselves in now. Drafting the BPA sounds great in theory but, in practice, when you draft 3 centers in a row it's not so easy to move one or two of them for full value.


Yeah, OK, but no one knows how Hinkie would have played things draft night or over the off-season. Maybe he gets a decent trade for both of them. Just because Collars couldn't move 'em doesn't mean Hinkie couldn't have.

And, by the way, we need to have patience with guys playing together. Two games is a really small sample.

And, let me beat the drum one more time--a lot of this is on Brown. He needs to motivate Jah on defense, coach him up, and figure out how to have two of Jah, Noel, and Embiid on the court together playing well on both ends of the court. That's his freakin' job. It's not completely on the players. Skill-sets aren't fixed in stone.


I'd be more inclined to be patient if this wasn't the way everyone predicted it would go before they tried it. It's been relatively ok on offense but Embiid is floating around the perimeter and Okafor is a walking layup line on the other end. They've played 48 minutes together at this point and have a net rating of -14.3 which is the worst of any two person lineup with Embiid besides an 8 minute run with Grant.


Thank you. You can coach Okafor from now until eternity but if he's your rim protector with JoJo chasing stretch 4's on the perimeter it's a serious downgrade defensively and you're screwing with your franchise player the whole time.


Most coaches (I think) would put Joel at the defensive 5 and let Okafor chase the 4s on the perimeter. You can teach slow guys to be reasonably effective perimeter defenders IF you work at it. For a while. It's all about positioning and anticipation, and that's not in their DNA, it's coached. And it takes creative drills in practice, and it takes a decent amount of game experience.

I agree that Okafor doesn't defend the rim well enough to be a good defensive NBA 5, at least at his present level of physical development. But you can coach him to be a decent defensive 4. I can't let Brown off the hook completely. And he needs to be tougher on the players in terms of getting their best effort. Sometimes you have to tell them why they aren't getting it done, actually rub their noses in it. Sometimes you have to be supportive. Brown is great at the supportive stuff, but not too impressive in terms of holding guys accountable.


NBA teams don't practice very much during the season. Either way I don't really think playing Okafor at the 4 is an option, there's slow and there's what we're dealing with here. He's kind of a perfect storm of a lack of physical tools, conditioning, awareness, desire etc. 5 is the most important defensive position but it's also arguably the most straight forward.
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Re: Waiting for Santa and Simmons: A Sixers Thread

Postby Gimpy » Sat Dec 17, 2016 11:27 am

I'd be curious to see what a more creative coach could do with this roster. We won't get a chance to see that since BB won't be fired during the season and there's a 0% chance we last the rest of the year and go into next year with this same squad.

I'm dying to see Embiid and Noel play together. It'd be a shame if Nerlens is traded before we see if it could potentially work.
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Re: Waiting for Santa and Simmons: A Sixers Thread

Postby Napalm » Sat Dec 17, 2016 11:29 am

it works. i've seen it in visions. Okafor is the clog in the machine
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Re: Waiting for Santa and Simmons: A Sixers Thread

Postby Squire » Sat Dec 17, 2016 11:51 am

Okafor straight up for Marcus Smart, who says no?
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Re: Waiting for Santa and Simmons: A Sixers Thread

Postby jamiethekiller » Sat Dec 17, 2016 11:56 am

boston
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Re: Waiting for Santa and Simmons: A Sixers Thread

Postby Gimpy » Sat Dec 17, 2016 11:57 am

I'd rather just get a random first rounder for him, but I'd trade Okafor for a bag of snacks at this point.
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Re: Waiting for Santa and Simmons: A Sixers Thread

Postby Gimpy » Sat Dec 17, 2016 12:03 pm

Okafor for Devin Harris, Seth Curry, and a future protected pick?
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Re: Waiting for Santa and Simmons: A Sixers Thread

Postby PSUPhilliesPhan » Sat Dec 17, 2016 12:04 pm

Noel is a professional athlete getting paid millions. He's right but should keep his mouth shut. A team looking to acquire him now has to worry about him being happy about minutes? Think you need to look for a Goran Dragic like trade for him or Okafor. Take picks way in the future.
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Re: Waiting for Santa and Simmons: A Sixers Thread

Postby jamiethekiller » Sat Dec 17, 2016 12:06 pm

at this point i'm packing a future pick with Okafor to get him gone
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Re: Waiting for Santa and Simmons: A Sixers Thread

Postby PSUPhilliesPhan » Sat Dec 17, 2016 12:12 pm

jamiethekiller wrote:at this point i'm packing a future pick with Okafor to get him gone


Why? He's been a good soldier through all of this and has a role in this league. I release Noel before giving him away with a pick.
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Re: Waiting for Santa and Simmons: A Sixers Thread

Postby Napalm » Sat Dec 17, 2016 12:22 pm

PSUPhilliesPhan wrote:Noel is a professional athlete getting paid millions. He's right but should keep his mouth shut. A team looking to acquire him now has to worry about him being happy about minutes? Think you need to look for a Goran Dragic like trade for him or Okafor. Take picks way in the future.

i don't think a team looking to trade for Noel is going to dick him around on minutes.
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Re: Waiting for Santa and Simmons: A Sixers Thread

Postby jamiethekiller » Sat Dec 17, 2016 12:22 pm

playing the role of Good Soldier doesn't make him a complement to the team. I agree with others that have said that Noel and Okafor most likely have to go. so arguing which one is better fit probably doesn't matter. If you wanna get rid of both of them the fastest then Okafor will have to go by trade and Noel can go by not resigning him.

Embiid, Simmons, Saric, Stauskus, Richaun, Covington and TLC are the core of the future.
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Re: Waiting for Santa and Simmons: A Sixers Thread

Postby MoBettle » Sat Dec 17, 2016 12:31 pm

Why would Okafor not be a good soldier when they are doing everything to accommodate him? Embiid is now playing power forward when he's obviously a franchise center. Saric is playing small forward and Simmons is apparently going to play point guard after Brown called them both power forwards. Noel is barely playing at all. Literally every other lottery pick from this era is either playing out of position or not playing so he can play exactly the same role he's played since day 1.
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Re: Waiting for Santa and Simmons: A Sixers Thread

Postby Napalm » Sat Dec 17, 2016 12:34 pm

can we trade Jah for Ish Smith
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Re: Waiting for Santa and Simmons: A Sixers Thread

Postby jamiethekiller » Sat Dec 17, 2016 12:39 pm

talking last night about the lack of 'oops this year. need more ish - noel oops
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Re: Waiting for Santa and Simmons: A Sixers Thread

Postby Napalm » Sat Dec 17, 2016 12:44 pm

gonna probably have to hang around until Simmons gets back for that. And subsequently, I think he's the guy that'll start pumping value into Okafor. The next phase of this season until Benny Ball is gonna be a bit of a slog
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Re: Waiting for Santa and Simmons: A Sixers Thread

Postby rolex » Sat Dec 17, 2016 12:45 pm

jamiethekiller wrote:playing the role of Good Soldier doesn't make him a complement to the team. I agree with others that have said that Noel and Okafor most likely have to go. so arguing which one is better fit probably doesn't matter. If you wanna get rid of both of them the fastest then Okafor will have to go by trade and Noel can go by not resigning him.

Embiid, Simmons, Saric, Stauskus, Richaun, Covington and TLC are the core of the future.

I'd go with JE, Simmons and Saric being the ore of the future. After that it gets sketchy. JE is the 5; its a waste of his talent on defense to have him running around outside of the lane. There is no way that NN is playing in the front court over Simmons or Saric. He doesn't have the offensive tools to do that. So you're correct in that both NN and Jah need to be moved. The problem with that is that every team in the league knows this as well so the chances of them offering decent return for these two is pretty slim. Hinke saw these guys as tradable assets and they are if you can find a trading partner.
Brown has a tough task handling all of this but that is his job. Right now it doesn't look to be going well. These guys may need a different voice in their ear to get their attention.
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